The goal of this interview series is to inspire and help people to transition their career into a new or next experimentation related role. In this edition Daan van Vliet shares his journey. Daan just started as Senior Product Manager at Alleo (formerly YourCampus) in The Netherlands.
The great thing about this work and the mindset is that it is never completely finished and there is always room for improvement. So you keep learning.
Daan van Vliet
Please introduce yourself to our readers.
During and after I obtained my Masters in Marketing Management, my focus was – logically – on online marketing. I found it fascinating to learn more about the different ways to get people to your website, app or shop. However, this interest quickly took a different turn when, in 2016, I heard Bart Schutz talk about consumer psychology in the documentary What makes you click. I was immediately mega excited about this work and knew that my next step would have to be one in the world of Conversion Rate Optimisation (yes, that’s what I called it back then).
At that time, as a young professional, there were few opportunities to get started as a CRO specialist. Happily, I saw at that time an online marketing agency in Utrecht (ODIV) had someone come over from Online Dialogue, namely: Joost Fromberg. Although I started there as a Display Advertising Specialist, I soon started setting up the CRO proposition together with him. This went well and through the fine cooperation with Stuurlui (WordPress development), we were able to grow this proposition, with the end result that I became CXO Lead there (Yes, that’s when the role of eXperience increased :)).
Since ODIV works mainly for SMEs and I needed more data from my role, I started looking for a bigger company with more data and resources. That’s how I arrived at PLUS Retail (an omnichannel supermarket) in 2020. During my first two years at PLUS, my focus was on building a structured experimentation programme. In doing so, I directly involved colleagues from the product team. We discovered that we could learn a lot from each other’s ways of working and so the first steps were taken towards an integrated approach to CRO/CXO and Product Development. As this cooperation intensified, it was only logical to move to this team in 2023. I had become so enthusiastic about agile working that a move as Product Owner was highly desirable. And so it happened; I became Product Owner CXO with the big goal of getting everything and everyone inside (and later outside) the digital domain to optimize and innovate based on validation.
What is your current experimentation role and what do you do?
I have just started as Senior Product Manager at Alleo. This scale-up provides a platform for smart and flexible employee compensation. With our platform, we give employees the autonomy to choose their own benefits.
In my new role, I am responsible for the further development of the Alleo app. The company has a lot of data, but is not yet doing enough with it. It’s up to me to grow the role of data and validation and improve the product.
How did you enter the experimentation space? What was your first experimentation related role? Share your origin story here.
In addition to what I already answered in the first question, my first A/B test was one with different display banners for a film campaign. The test was charged based on Click Through Rate. After this, Joost Fromberg taught me the tricks of the trade and I shifted my focus to website optimization.
How did you start to learn experimentation?
Learning on the job in combination with self-study. At ODIV I was given the opportunity to learn and apply what I discovered in the world of CRO. The great thing about this work and the mindset is that it is never completely finished and there is always room for improvement. So you keep learning.
How do you apply experimentation in your personal life? (what are you tinkering with or always optimizing?)
I also apply experimentation in my personal life. For example, I often believe that there are multiple solutions to tackle problems and I am always open to trying new things. My pitfall is that I sometimes rely too much on data and am less likely to make a decision without this valuable source.
What are you currently doing to keep up with the ever-changing industry?
I try to read as many books and articles as possible and like to attend events where valuable knowledge is shared. I have often been to Conversion Hotel, a paradise for our field of work.
What recommendations would you give to someone who is looking to join the experimentation industry and get their first full-time position?
In contrast to my starting point in my career, there are now possibilities. For example, I know that ClickValue even hires working students to give them a taste of this work. However, it is not an easy profession and your knowledge must be broad. So start with self-study and read/listen/watch as much as possible of all the information that is available online and go to those events!
Which developments in experimentation excite you? How do you see the field changing in the next 5 to 10 years? What will stay the same? What’s not going to change in the next ten years?
The role of artificial intelligence will of course continue to increase. I think this is a boon for our work, as there are quite a lot of repetitive actions within the process and automation with AI can be applied more easily. We will be able to save a lot of time, especially in the areas of ideation, hypothesizing, QA and analysis. I also expect that the role of predictive analytics will increase.
In terms of specialism, I think it will become increasingly generic and we will take on more of a role of inspirer/trainer/enabler and therefore enable others to work as we already do.
The role of gut feelings will continue to diminish, but not disappear. Validation is a mindset and in my opinion not only generation related.
Is there anything people reading this can help you with? Or any parting words?
It is wonderful to see how validation is now widely embraced in other types of work. It is up to us to continue to stimulate this trend and teach others about this method.
Which other experimenters would you love to read an interview by?
Teresa Torres, Marty Cagan, and Paul Rissen.
