The goal of this interview series is to inspire and help people to transition their career into a new or next experimentation related role. In this edition Michiel Jansen shares his journey. You can contact Michiel via LinkedIn.
In my experience (open to be be proven wrong) the real improvements in the industry always require a boost to the service or product.
Michiel Jansen
Hello fellow Optimisers! Great to participate in this. Love reading these stories myself so here goes! I have been working as an internet specialist, marketeer and ab-tester since 1997. So actually since the beginning of the commercial internet. Other long lasting affinities include music: I have been a music lover since age 7. Pop, rock, blues, classic, jazz, world. You name it, I’ll listen to it. After having a garage rock band and working in Amsterdams ‘De Melkweg’ music and art venue while studying it seemed logical to apply for a job at a record company. Sent six applications and got one invite. But hey, One is enough right? Became ‘Webmaster’ for the Website for PolyGram/Universal. The biggest entertainment company in the world with artists ranging from Bob Marley, The Stones, Police, Classical, Eminnem and many more. Movies too! I remember putting live the information for the original release of the Big Lebowski. Dude?! Are you that old. Yes I am! I actually understand what the Dude means when he complains about losing his Creedence tapes 😉 after his car gets hijacked.
What made me turn away from the record company and towards the internet crowd? The people! The record company people where always sharing stories how it was better in the old days, going out with the Rolling Stones, Metallica, Dire Straits, The Police in Hilversum and Amsterdam. The internet people I met were forward looking. Which I prefer! So you might say I picked my profession on the type of people in it. And I would advise that to everyone. Look at the people doing the job and then think?; ”Would I like to be like them?”. If the answer is a clear ‘no’ move on, pivot, change. IF ýes’, go for it! You wont be disappointed!
What is your current experimentation role and what do you do?
I am leading the Global Centre of Excellence for Conversion for ING Bank. Not sure about the length of that title. Think it could be optimised! We connect Digital sales, Marketing and Product teams and persons across ING Countries. We host monthly virtual meetups, try to get better AB test and Analytics tooling, exchange knowledge, AB Tests and Ways of working. We connect. On top of that we regularly help product teams out in the ING countries to help boost their funnel. See where the drop-outs are, look at data, behavior, feedback or heatmaps. Find a solution and test if it works. Love doing that. Admittedly after 11 years of hands on AB testing it is sometimes hard to not be in the driving seat but the role definitely allows for growth in other areas.
How did you enter the experimentation space? What was your first experimentation-related role?
So Bart Schutz of Online Dialogue is a friend and invited me to one of the early Online Dialogue ‘Which Test Won events. By then I was a little bored with doing marketing for startups, working in startups and writing business plans for startups. And I was shocked at how hard it proved to predict the customer. The session was truly an AHA!-moment. Again, besides the content; also the people. So I quit the ‘Marketing Manager Job’, accepted a low base salary (at career pivot points you need to invest in skill and don’t look at the $) and started working at Online Dialogue as employee nr. four.
How did you start to learn experimentation?
Learning by doing in a great company. We worked in small teams: CRO plus Analist and/or UX. Ton Wesseling kindly got me up to speed at Health Insurer ‘VGZ’. After that I started testing for Vodafone Ziggo, Essent, Marktplaats, MeesPierson, Visa, Mastercard, MoneYou. Besides AB testing also helping out with redesigns for Visa, Mastercard in NL and Germany. I found that my marketing and start-up experience fit neatly into optimising websites and apps and gave me a different point of view than people from an analyst or psychology background. Combining those makes for powerful optimisation.
How do you apply experimentation in your personal life?
Such a great question. First: check your ego at the door! You may have years of life and work experience. But that doesn’t mean you know what is coming next and what is right. So keep an open mind. Further; life is not an AB test. You cannot ideate, push live, reset the data and flush it, redo, reset, retry and optimise. I try to keep myself from doing in life what I do with AB tests. For any page or app feature or content I can think of ten alternatives. And I do. In life it is not very helpful if you keep thinking about all the other lifes. I do try to be flexible, agile, to recognize when it is time for change. And I also do more of what I enjoy and keeps me engaged and less of what I don’t enjoy and requires a lot of effort. I would say; find where your energy comes from and then try to go with the flow.
So my 2 cents: don’t multivariate test your life just live it! Lets quote John Lennon:
“Life is something that happens while you are busy making other plans”. Lets quote Roger Waters: “This is not the rehearsal.” And finally, lets Quote ING: “The World Only Gets you Once!” So enjoy!
What are you currently doing to keep up with the ever-changing industry?
Being in it for a start. Going to conferences and best advice ever: ‘Hire people that make you nervous’. Don’t try to be the smartest in the room. Surround yourself with talent. And oh: read a book once in a while. Another great way to keep up I actually learned at Online Dialogue: make time to write blogs! It helps to understand if you need to explain. Also, I have taught AB testing at Business schools but also at Growth Tribe. This helps to stay ahead. I am not the type of person that has their own e-Commerce store or is figuring out tools all night. Sorry wish I was but I have other ways to keep myself informed and engaged.
What recommendations would you give to someone who is looking to join the experimentation industry and get their first full-time position?
Learn from the best. Even if it means you have to accept a lower wage for a while. True skill and experience has a way of paying you back in the future. Another way I have seen people do successfully; start your own company or agency and learn by doing. Whatever fits you best, I think you know or will find out soon.
Which developments in experimentation excite you? How do you see the field changing in the next 5 to 10 years?
Agile excites me. I actually like that if you improve 15% every year you have more than doubled in 4 years. So, please; less waterfall, moonshot projects, more fact based continuous optimisation. Having said that, optimization and agile is a hype industry for sure. AB-Testing, Multivariate testing, Bayesian testing, Bandit testing, Meta Analysis, Gen AI. Hypes come and go at a high pace. But actually what excites me in experimentation is that how ever smart the tools become it still requires a human to make it all come together. Yes you can find 3% uplift in the content, Call to action, or UX change in a page or app. But you can find 15% if you talk to the product people or the legal department. If you slightly change the product, the terms and conditions etc.
In my experience (open to be be proven wrong) the real improvements in the industry always require a boost to the service or product. Optimisers are sometimes so hooked on small changes that they tend to underestimate how important things like “free cancellation, free returns, book now, pay later, 14 days grace period etc. are”. These can really build a company (Booking.com, Zalando, Bol.com, Coolblue). And sure you need to test them, optimise them, look at the end to end result to see the full effect. But don’t get stuck in a local optimum of small changes.
What I hope to see 5-10 years from now in our industry is actually more of a 360 view. So not just conversion. I hope loyalty marketing finally wins from the oversimplified ‘do a campaign to get some new customers’. And I hope we all learn to not only sell new stuff. I hope we will become more sustainable, more cradle2cradle as an industry and less short term profit focussed.
Is there anything people reading this can help you with? Or any parting words?
Well I am looking into setting up something, in whatever shape or form, that will allow us to use what we learned in ecommerce and apply it to social enterprises, sustainable enterprises. This will be my goal going to Conversion Hotel in November 2023. Furthermore Besides my job @ING, which I love, I am looking for a new organisation or platform to teach, run live classes as this energizes me and keeps me up to speed.
Parting words: TNX for the opportunity, keep up the good work and remember: Experimentation is not something you do; it is how you do things!
Which other experimenters would you love to read an interview by?
Guy Stratermans, Tibor Sisarica, Bart Schutz
Thank you Michiel for sharing your journey and insights with the community.
