Emma de Vries: My Experimentation Career Journey

The goal of this interview series is to inspire and help people to transition their career into a new or next experimentation related role. In this edition Emma de Vries shares her journey. Emma is online marketer and CRO Specialist at Nationale-Nederlanden.

Growing in the field of experimentation is a priority for me. Staying connected with fellow CRO professionals is essential. So, feel free to reach out to me.

Emma de Vries

Please introduce yourself to our readers.

Have you ever wondered how your brain works? Do you believe that you are not influenced and that you consciously make most of your decisions? Well, guess what… you’re wrong! On a daily basis, 95% of all your decisions are made unconsciously. My name is Emma de Vries, and I am a passionate online marketer and CRO Specialist. I have a keen interest in neuromarketing, consumer behaviour, and, of course, conversion rate optimization (CRO).

What makes marketing so exciting? It’s the combination of data analysis and behavioural studies that allows us to be as relevant and personalized as possible for our website visitors. By testing, we can learn from our visitors.

Apart from optimizing websites and processes, I also have a strong affinity for sports. In my spare time, I play basketball, and I enjoy running. What I like about team sports is the ability to play hard, play smart, and play together. By optimizing your team strategy, you can increase your team performance. 

What is your current experimentation role and what do you do?

At the moment, I work as an online marketer and CRO Specialist at Nationale-Nederlanden. I am happy to be part of the Customer & Commerce department and contribute to the so-called ‘Center of Excellence’. My job is anything but dull, as my tasks are highly varied. Recently, we adopted a new tool for personalization and experimentation, and I eagerly delved into its features. In my role, I am responsible for tasks such as setting up A/B tests and implementing personalization campaigns.

Beyond experimentation, I also engage in other online marketing-related activities. Collaborating with colleagues, we develop personalized content for email campaigns, social campaigns, and optimize landing pages for our campaigns. We share our learnings with the Business Units, contributing to continuous learning and development. My next goal is to show the added value of experimentation to my colleagues. Recently, I already had the opportunity to discuss experimentation at the NN Marketing Event, aiming to inspire colleagues with the possibilities of experimentation.

How did you enter the experimentation space? What was your first experimentation related role?

After completing my studies, I enrolled in the digital marketing traineeship at SchaalX. As a trainee, I had my first exposure to the world of experimentation during one of the masterclasses focused on conversion rate optimization. There, I gained a basic understanding of how to increase conversion rates by truly understanding your audience and how to persuade them by leveraging insights from Kahneman’s System 1 and 2. This experience triggered my interest in CRO. Everyone can contribute to optimizing a website. You don’t have to set up A/B tests, you can simply start by optimizing copy with the persuasion principles of Cialdini.

What particularly fascinated me was the blend of neuromarketing combined with data analysis. In my previous role, I collaborated with a digital marketing agency to set up small-scale experiments. I wanted to do this more, and that’s how I entered my current job. In my current job, I am truly dedicated to CRO for the first time, making this my first experimentation-related role.

How did you start to learn experimentation?

When I joined Nationale-Nederlanden, I had the opportunity to complete the Conversion Specialist training at Online Dialogue. The training covered various aspects, including processes, data & statistics, psychology, and a touch of UX. Fortunately, I also had the privilege of attending a CRO conference in the Netherlands: The Conference (formerly known as Conversion Hotel). There, I connected with enthusiastic experimenters and optimizers from all corners of the world. During that weekend on Texel, I learned a lot from top-notch keynote speakers and engaged in discussions about CRO-related topics during breakout sessions. Conversations with fellow optimizers provided me with a lot of information. Additionally, I subscribed to various newsletters that delve into CRO topics and discuss test results. This practical exposure complements the theoretical understanding.

How do you apply experimentation in your personal life? (what are you tinkering with or always optimizing?)

As I mentioned earlier, I am a passionate sports enthusiast. I enjoy sports and constantly strive to improve myself, aiming to enhance my own personal records (PRs) and perform better during competitions and events. Last year, I ran my first marathon: the Rotterdam Marathon. Balancing an intensive running schedule with the basketball season required good planning, attention to nutrition, and adequate rest to prevent an overload of training. For me, the months leading up to the marathon were all about experimentation, analysis, and implementation (or sometimes, non-implementation) related to nutrition, clothing, and training schedules. This thorough preparation paid off, and the execution on race day went according to plan. It was a fully optimized race!

What are you currently doing to keep up with the ever-changing industry?

I have subscribed to several CRO newsletters where developments are discussed. Additionally, I would like to continue attending conferences where I can meet like-minded professionals and learn from esteemed speakers. Connecting with other professionals is crucial for expanding my network. Participating in training sessions ensures that I stay ahead of industry developments.

What recommendations would you give to someone who is looking to join the experimentation industry and get their first full-time position?

I am still relatively new to the field, and what I found particularly valuable was the opportunity to immediately attend training sessions and connect with more experienced professionals during The Conference. I highly recommend taking classes and then applying the learned theory directly in practice. Furthermore, it’s crucial to share your enthusiasm about experimentation with colleagues. The more experimentation becomes integrated in the organizational culture, the greater the potential for gains. This aligns with the formula for the value of your CRO program: ROI = (quantity * quality) / costs. The more completed experiments, the higher the ROI. So, when you keep learning and keep developing yourself in experimentation, you are able to reach another level! As Zig Ziglar wisely said in the past: ‘If you are not willing to learn, no one can help you. If you are determined to learn, no one can stop you!’.

Which developments in experimentation excite you? How do you see the field changing in the next 5 to 10 years?

In the coming years, I believe AI will significantly impact experimentation and personalization:

By integrating AI into experimentation, we can address longstanding issues related to online experiments, such as measurement errors. AI can assist us with experimental design, implementation, and data analysis. We need to figure out how we can use this in a positive way. Do you think that AI is able to think critically about the outcomes of an experiment?

AI’s expansion enables us to enhance personalization throughout entire websites. By tailoring content to individual website visitors, we create a seamless and relevant experience during their entire customer journey. The ultimate goal for the coming years is to encourage more product teams within organizations to embrace experimentation. 

Is there anything people reading this can help you with? Or any parting words?

I really appreciate this interview series! It’s incredibly valuable to learn from and read the perspectives of fellow optimizers. Kevin, you’re doing a great job!

Continuing on, I’m always eager to continue my personal development. Growing in the field of experimentation is a priority for me. Staying connected with fellow CRO professionals is essential. So, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn, and let’s have a good conversation about experimenting or just share ideas and/or knowledge!

Which other experimenters would you love to read an interview by?

I’m interested in an interview with Joanna Wiebe. I had the chance to meet her at The Conference, where her keynote presentation on conversion copywriting was very useful. Her insights and expertise are truly inspiring!

Thank you Emma for sharing your journey and insights with the community.

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